娇色导航

Cathy O'Sullivan:? Hello and welcome to 娇色导航Leadership Live. I'm Cathy O'Sullivan, Editorial Director for 娇色导航in Australia and New Zealand. And today, I'm joined by Kari Jones, Executive Director of Transformation and Operations at New Zealand's Financial Markets Authority. Welcome. Thanks for being with us today, Kari. ?

Kari Jones:? Thank you. Thank you for having me, great to be here. ? Cathy O'Sullivan:? Exciting.

And look, I love to hear about execs' careers. So can you tell us a little bit about your career journey to date, and what have been some of those key moments that have shaped your path? ?

Kari Jones:? Yeah, thanks, Cathy. So I think I always, so I always think about having my career as sort of having two sort of parallel streams.

I've had my performance, sort of sports side of my career, where I've been coaching and playing sport at an international level, but I've also had an obviously a strong technology focused career, starting with a computer science degree and then into sort of everything from DBA solutions architecture or data architecture, warehouse development, all of those really good things before moving to New Zealand, where I joined PWC.

And I think that was a really key moment for me.

It was a it was a really key shift for me, for a tough decision, from some coming out of being very technology focused, hands on keyboards, you know, into a role that was almost into a world that I didn't really kind of understand, if I'm honest, world of strategy, world of technology consulting, and in a country that I had not, hadn't lived in before.

And so really key for me to that shift was really important for me, and a major sort of shift, I suppose, in my career, and having spent a little bit of time with with PwC four or five years, I joined a couple of other organisations, but found that, you know, my time at Air New Zealand was just, was really, was really fantastic being in an airline, being at an airline that really wanted to be a digital airline, first and foremost, really putting customer experience very much at the centre of what they were doing, at the forefront of product, at the forefront of experimenting with Agile operating models and really looking to, you know, use data and technology in, you Know, an increasingly innovative test and learn types of ways.

So that was a really pivotal moment to be in an organization that, again, wanted to blend the physical and the digital side by side, and then sort of joining organizations like New Zealand post where I got the opportunity to not just lead out data, but also lead out Agile transformation as well, and then joining Woolies, you know, 200,000 person organisation across Australia and New Zealand who really was working through every aspect of its business and looking to transform itself with the usage of data technology, AI, ml.

And, you know, this is, and this was, you know, four or five, four or five years ago.

I think the key thing is, when I look back at some of those key points in my career, is often the people, and it's often sort of key leaders that helped you through a very difficult moment.

And it's a, you know, it's a key learning, and I know that we'll probably talk about that as part of the interview.

And key, key areas are real challenge, where I got the opportunity to stretch myself into an area that maybe I didn't know that if I could do, or didn't necessarily back myself to do, but had enough people around me to say, Go, you've got this.

Get on with it. You can do it. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan:? Absolutely and now you're at the FMA. So for those who may not be familiar, can you give us a bit of an overview of the organisation and its role in that wider financial and regulatory landscape, and what your role actually involves? ?

Kari Jones:? Yes, so the world of regulation is new for me, so I'm definitely still on a steep learning curve, and so I have looked for different ways to sort of explain it to myself, to create a mental model.

But first and foremost, it's a financial conduct regulator, so it's all about the customer, and it's all about making sure that markets participants, financial institutions that are regulated by the FMA are actually doing the right thing in terms of customer fairness and transparency for the customer, but it's also got a really important role in growth and innovation as well.

It's not just about it's not about just about helping organisations follow the rules, actually helping new organisations or innovative new products come into the market, and do that in a way that is making sure that we're considering the customer very much at the centre of those discussions, suppose the analogy again, sort of going back to that sports, that sports sort of fanaticism that I have is, is the concept of a really fantastic sports referee.

And I know that, you know, as New Zealanders, we all sort of want to know who's going to be the referee of the World Cup final or the semi or whatever it is, because we know it makes a real difference.

And having a really fantastic, you know, referee or an umpire of a sports game helps us.

It's it's an empire helps us focus on the things that really matter to the get for the game, not necessarily nit picking over every single little rule and the game stops and starts and stops and starts, but it's actually focusing on the things that really make a difference.

And I think that's what the FMA is aiming to do, it's aiming to be outcomes focused. It's focusing on the things that really matter and where the harm is seen. And it's going to make a real difference for New Zealanders. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan:? That's a great analogy, Kari. I love that as the referee. It certainly makes it very understandable for people who are not involved in finance or the regulatory landscape. So tell us a bit more then about your role, and you recently joined the organization.

What drew you to the position, and what does that role involve? ?

Kari Jones: Yeah, I mean, if I'm honest, I never, if I never really saw myself in in the financial sector, I have been very open with people about that, although my engagement with the financial sector started very young, I often attribute my my parents to exposing me to technology and getting me involved in the Computer Club, very, very young, and always having, you know, exposure to technology.

But what I reflected on is how much they expose me to the finance sector as well, from a very young age.

You know, my dad would consider my mum's, you know, when she became a mum and she stopped working, what her pension contributions should be, and I know that's still a problem.

You know, for for mums, when they when they give up work, and thinking about their KiwiSaver contributions, I think about my dad retiring early at 58 and it got me wondering, you know, how did he do that?

What are some of the things that I need to do to to to set myself up financially for both independence and success. And so the attraction to the Financial Markets Authority was sort of trickle a little bit by, by my interest in finances, anyway, from from my parents.

But also, you know, it's the role is incredibly broad. I get to get to involved with lots of different things, from finance, from people and capability, technology, digital and data as well. It's got a very strong purpose. It's got the customer.

It's got New Zealanders, very much at the center of everything that it does.

And it's really about helping New Zealanders engage with access into into financial products, creating a fair and transparent and financial market and and I think that really, that really talks to me, and what I want to, I suppose, leave is a little bit of a legacy, if I can know, if I can say something like that, yeah.

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Cathy O'Sullivan:? So you have moved from those data roles, from that specialist data and background, into a broader leadership role. And it can be a big shift, moving from a specialist into that broader leadership role. So what are some of the adjustments that you've had to make? ?

Kari Jones:? Look, I think it's, I think it is. There is a shift, and it's not as big as I was expecting.

If I'm being if I'm being honest, I've been used to running very big teams, and when you run very big teams, you're always engaging with your technology counterparts, your technology colleagues.

You know you have to be able to land your budget, whether project budget, whether it's your OPEX budget, whatever it might be. And you always needing to think about, how do you build people and capability so you can retain, retain talent over the long term?

So all of those things, while I haven't led out finance and people and capability functions previously, I certainly feel like I've been part of organizations where their business partnering and their approach to finance and people and capability has been really world class, and I feel like I can bring that perspective from what that feels like when you can partner really closely with those functions.

So for that. But on that side of things, it hasn't been a huge shift. I think for me, the biggest shift has been more around, you know, it's new content, it's a new industry. It's a it's a whole new language. Regulation in itself, is new for me.

So really understanding, you know, what does my what are my colleagues, what are the frontline teams do? And actually, how does an enabling function, in terms of the ones that I'm leading, how can that really support the frontline do its job to the very best of its ability?

And so I think that's been a big shift for me, and I've got great colleagues that have been leaning in to support me, to help me on, you know, on that learning curve, but, but for me, that's the exciting part.

I actually really enjoy, um, learning something new, going really deep into, you know, going really deep into a topic.

And I think this, this role, is giving me that opportunity to go into areas that I had been excited about for years, experimented in, whether that's in crypto or whether that's in tokenization.

And as I said to my dad one day, when I just started the job and I was being exposed to some of these topics, I said, Look, this is what I do for a living now, dad, you know, this is not just stuff that I'm playing around with at the weekend.

This is actually what I'm doing for a job now. And he was super excited as well. So, yeah, it's so there's this, there is a shift, but it's an exciting and a fun one to engage with. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan:? It sounds like very exciting new role, Kari,? and look, tell us more than about, you know, you mentioned you're, you're working with different functions across the organisation. So how do you plan to foster you know that collaboration between teams? ?

Kari Jones:? Yes, I think, look, I think ultimately, this is one of the hardest challenges that an organisation has, is, how can, how can it create spaces where people can collaborate, not compete.

Ultimately, our competition is either outside or actually anything that where we're competing internally just becomes noise, and it actually distracts us from the ultimate goal, which is serving the customer. In our case, the serving, serving New Zealanders.

And so I think the key thing for me is is, how do I role model that? So how do I show up as a leader? How am I demonstrating collaboration?

And for me, that starts with the language that I'm using in terms of who is my team, and so my team, and I use the and I emphasise the word my the possessive now is, is is my team and my ELT colleagues. That's my team.

And then I have the teams that I'm leading, okay, which are there in service to the organization strategy. I don't have my own technology strategy or people and capability strategy or finance strategy.

Actually, we just have work plans or goals that are delivering in service to the organizational strategy. And my team are my ELT colleagues, and I think that's that shifts my mindset in terms of, you know, where do I put my effort? Where do I put my time?

And actually, when my colleagues are successful, I am successful, and even more so in an enabling in an enabling function.I think that that can really start to that can show up in lots of different ways.

So that can show up as with where, how visible I am in the organization, how accessible I can be.

So whether that's, you know, going to have lunch in the in the canteen, or in the in the in the, you know, in the lunchroom, and being available people knowing what days I'm going to be in the office, where where my desk is.

I've got a little table by my desk, and people literally just swing by and say, Can I grab 10 minutes? Or they'll be a walk and talk together.

And I think all of those things kind of demonstrate and role model how we want collaboration to actually occur in practice, easy to say, but we've actually got to do it and follow through with it.

But it starts with that role modeling and some of the language that we use around who is my team. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan:? Is there any other, you know, you mentioned a few things there, but are there any other mindsets or habits or frameworks that that you use in terms of your approach to leadership, and especially, you know, stepping into a new role where you have to learn a lot on the go?

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Kari Jones:? I think there were some things that I put in very, very quickly to create structure, which was, you know, this these things aren't, aren't new, but putting in place a much more focused approach around our goal setting, our quarterly goal setting and prioritization, and bringing in some of the experiences that, you know, I brought from, from other organizations like for Woolies or Air New Zealand, bringing those, those types of practices in, and then getting people to really be able to articulate the outcome or the value that they are delivering, not just the to the long list of the to do, list of things that they have to do in the quarter, and getting people to think about, who are the others?

What's Who am I serving? Who does this value? Who am I delivering value to?

And who are the other people that I might need to help me make this thing, whatever it is that I'm doing successful, and actually recognizing that within the within the functions that I'm leading, actually, there's a great deal of superpowers.

There's a great, incredible bunch of strengths, which when they come together, when you bring technology, when you bring product, when you bring keep people in capability, and the finance team together, when you bring those groups of people together, actually, you can really make the boat go faster.

But it all comes down to getting clarity around the alignment of those goals and then actually putting in place systems and processes that make it easy for people to, you know, to run their quarterly program. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan:? So look, Kari, it's often said that we learn more from our mistakes than we do our triumphs. So when you look back on your career.

Are there any, I guess, missteps or mistakes along the way that really turned into valuable learning experiences, and I guess, have shaped the way you lead today? ?

Kari Jones:? Yeah, look, I think lots, plenty. And I was thinking, well, what would what would be the one that I would want to share. And I think there's still ones that you are work I'm working through.

You know that a little bit nearer, but I think the one that I really wanted to share with you today was was really around the opportunity when I was at Air New Zealand, was I got the opportunity to step into the GM, the acting GM role for data and analytics.

And great opportunity. I really thought that I had made it, and I got to do the role for nine months, but ultimately, didn't get the full time role. And was absolutely gutted. It was absolutely it was really wrenching. You feel like you feel a failure, right?

You feel like I've put all of this effort in. How could people not see how much effort I've put in? I've, you know, I've really pushed hard, I've driven for results. I've, like, got stuff done and but I didn't ultimately, ultimately get the role.

But and I think for me, I didn't know what mistake I had made in order to not get that role.

And it wasn't until my new boss, Lionel Lopez, who actually was successful in getting the GM role, when he came in, he was able to provide me with some feedback and feedback that he had gathered bravely and courageously from other leaders around the organisation, and he was kind enough, not bold enough, kind enough okay to sit me down and give me that feedback.

And that feedback was blunt and it was hard, and it was a bitter pill to swallow, and it was very much around Kari, your colleagues have said that you are aggressive and bruising to deal with, and and I was like, wow, that hurts.

And because I just thought I was getting stuff done, and I just thought that I was really showing the like, the characteristics of what it looks like to be really delivery focused.

But what he, you know, explained to me, and what he shared with me, and the journey that I went on as a leader, as a result of that feedback, was really understanding it's not just about being so single minded.

It's about how you go about doing doing your work. It's about how you bring other people with you. It's about how you make people feel as they as they're working alongside you.

And as a result of that, that feedback, I got to do some, you know, a lot of hell, you know, a lot of coaching. I did a the Hogan's Dark Side assessment, which was just one of the best assessments for me personally.

And it really made me realise that my energy, how I bring myself, with this high level of drive, you know, can be perceived by others really differently, and so I have to really watch and think about how I bring that energy, because when it's overplayed, it can look very different for different people and so, and I think that's how that was showing up, as you can be results focused, but you have to go at the pace that the organisation wants to go at, and you can't be so far out in front of everyone else, it's just becoming really painful and really frustrating for for me and for the teams that you're leading or the people that you're working with.

So really gave me an opportunity to reflect on, you know, bringing the joy back to work actually doesn't always have to be super serious all the time.

You can, you know, you can, you know, you can have a laugh, you can have fun, and you can still get stuff done. And those two things aren't, you know, mutually exclusive. They can, they can sit in the same space.

So there was, it was, it was like I said. Lionel Lopez, he wasn't brave, he was kind. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan:? Well, thank you for sharing that with us. And look, changing gears a bit. Look, I know regulation is evolving rapidly, and especially with areas like like AI and all the other emerging technologies. So how are you keeping up to speed on on these fast moving areas?

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Kari Jones:? ?Look, I think every every professional, whether you're a tech professional, whether you're a techie on the tools, whether or not you know you're another executive leader, think it's really critical that you're staying abreast of what's happening in technology.

I think we're all going to be, you know, have the opportunity to be to use these tools, to make these tools work for us, for me personally, I like to use a range of different mediums to for my professional development. I like to experiment.

I like to just get, you know, get back doing, doing some doing some experiments myself. So in the time between roles, between my previous role on the FMA, took the opportunity to do the spark MBA for AI with section school.

That was just a fantastic opportunity to, you know, explore a whole bunch of different topics around custom gpts, and actually, really getting to see how the tools can work for me at someone where I am in my career, and how these tools can still be relevant, but also how I can role model that to my team.

I my colleagues around me, but also the teams that I'm leading. And say, I want this for you. I am. I'm going to help you push the boundaries in this space. Let's explore together. What can we experiment together?

I think there's that, but there's also, in terms of the actual, the business of regulation. You know, I follow a hell of a lot of sort of podcasts, you know, Following the Rules with Lisa McNulty out of the UK.

You know, we've got great, great networks, and, you know, with the other Financial Conduct regulators in Australia and in the UK, I think it's, for me, it's a bit of a mix, a mixed blend, listening to the theory, experimenting with some of the tools, and then hearing other people's experiences as well.

So that's the sort of the blended approach that that I take, and it's an everyday thing for me. And look, there can be a gap between regulators and the industries that they oversee. So how do you think regulators can stay credible and knowledgeable?

But you know, balancing that oversight role they have with with innovation.

I think the FMA has a very clear role in innovation and growth, and while it's not an area that I look after or lead out on, recognize that as a I have as a technology leader within the organization who is being is bold in this space, and has seen, you know, has been part of organisations that are highly digitally, digitally mature.

I think there's a role for me to, you know, encourage others.

And I think there is that there is that we have to be able to explore and understand how the technologies work, we have to be able to use some of the tools so that we can understand both the risks and the rewards.

There are lots of opportunities for innovation and growth in FinTech using advanced technology.

And at the same time, we want to encourage, you know, a really good understanding of what the impact is for customers, making sure that these we can this is all done with an eyes wide open approach for customers, so they can take advantage in full knowledge of any risks that might be involved.

Cathy O'Sullivan: So talk to us about crypto. Then what's your take on the role of regulators and testing and understanding these kind of technologies.

Kari Jones: Look, I think it's important for us to be able to stay again, understanding what the technology is, what the opportunities are, and where the risks and where the rewards are.

And so for me personally, I have been exploring crypto ever since I ran the data science team at Air New Zealand, where we had a crypto club, and we were actually experimenting to understand the technology, the underlying blockchain technology itself.

And so it's, you know, I'm it's all on my interests register, you know, I will purchase crypto on a regular basis. I see it as part of my investment portfolio.

But I'm pretty sure that that wasn't really the use case and that it was trying to solve for in the beginning. And I think there's still a whole load of untapped use cases, from a from a pure technology perspective, that have hadn't really been unleashed yet.

You know, I think the big area where I think we have got an important watching brief is around not just a watching brief, an active brief is around scams and understanding that, you know, how can we make sure that we can alert New Zealanders when scams are doing, doing, doing the rounds, and making sure it's easy for New Zealanders to report scams, and making sure that we've got really strong collaboration with other agencies around making sure that those scam websites are taken down as fast as possible, and making sure that we're alerting New Zealanders as quickly as possible to the to the I suppose the exposure, the possible exposure to scams.

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Cathy O'Sullivan:? So look, the concept of a regulatory sandbox has been gaining some traction. So can you explain how this approach works and why it's important for fostering innovation. ? Kari Jones: Yeah.

I mean, the key thing for here is just to just to remember that it's we're in a pilot phase at the moment.

So, and while you know, other regulators in the UK have been making sort of good progress in their in their regulatory sandbox, we're in a pilot phase. And so this is a real opportunity for us to test and learn the value to the market.

How useful is what we're doing? Is there a value to organizations of having this type of sandbox activity? And I think this is where we are really demonstrating that we are an accessible regulator, that we want to run alongside new and innovative ideas that we want to help.

And it could be large firms, or it could be startups, innovate and iterate quickly with advice and with guidance of the regulator running alongside them in a way where we can provide them with feedback and where appropriate, with with advice, and so that we can be outcomes, focused with them, and not just be and I suppose the sort of the computer says no at the end of, you know, the end of a process.

And actually we can, that's why it's important, because we want to foster these types of, these working relationships, accessibility and approachability from a regulator. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan:? So looking ahead, then Kari, what are your key priorities in this role for the next year? Are there any areas that you're particularly excited about? ?

Kari Jones:? Look, I am a bit of a productivity nerd, and so actually, when the with all the talk around productivity, it's like, great, everyone jump into this waka over here. Like, let's do this.

So, like, I sum it up, although productivity, for many people, is a bit of a dirty word, or it's a it's a bit sounds a bit boring.

And so I try to sum it up in a little bit more of an easier kind of phrase, which for me, is all about making it easier. I don't not say easy, but easier.

So we're really trying to make it easier for external stakeholders, market participants, to be able to engage with the FMA. And really make it easier for our internal teams, our frontline teams, our back office teams, to do their very best work.

You know that will involve digital being, digitally led and data, sorry, data intelligence led and digitally enabled.

It involves us creating a culture of high performance, high engagement, and an organisation that is able to be agile in its sense of its change agility and its change tolerance, so our ability to be able to iterate a work, work in slightly different ways, and so that we can be a modern, outcomes focused regulator.

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Cathy O'Sullivan:? Well, we wish you all the best with the year ahead. Kari Jones, Executive Director Transformation and Operations at New Zealand's Financial Markets Authority. Thank you so much for joining us today. ?

Kari Jones:? Absolute pleasure. Thank you very much, Cathy.