娇色导航

Cathy O'Sullivan?

Welcome to 娇色导航Leadership Live New Zealand. I'm Cathy O'Sullivan, Editorial Director for Foundry's Enterprise and Channel brands in Australia and New Zealand. On today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Dhaya Sivakumar, who is the Chief Information Officer at LIC.? Kia ora Dhaya, great to see you again.

? Dhaya Sivakumar?

Kia ora, Cathy nice to see you too. ? Cathy O'Sullivan? Great stuff.

And look, the last time we caught up was of course down at the LIC headquarters in Hamilton, great to see you and the team and learn all about you what you and the team do there. So tell us a little bit about your career to date.

So I guess how you got your start in IT and what have been some of your career milestones? ? Dhaya Sivakumar? Yeah, sure.

And it's probably the first time you've been to a 娇色导航site wearing gumboots, I'm sure. So it was great to see you down there. Wasn't the best day though from memory; it was a little bit of rainy one, wasn't it? ? Cathy O'Sullivan? Yeah.

It was a very Waikato day. ? Dhaya Sivakumar? Yeah, yeah.

So, look, I think if I'm going to talk about my career, we should just start about me personally, and where I kind of got my, my passion from.? And I was always tinkering with technology since I was a very young lad, since I was a kid.

And playing with tech and being lucky enough to be able to get PCs, earlier PCs, and break them and put them together and all those things. So, I've always had that, that kind of fire inside of me about technology, and been very passionate about it.

But it wasn't really a big thing growing up. So, my parents, being Sri Lankan, and my family being Sri Lankan, their motivation for me was always to be a doctor. So, I failed miserably, unfortunately.

Look, I think going through, I did go to uni, and I did do a Bachelor of Business. And my first job was in the travel industry in the late 90s. And I had a role which was a mix of IT support as well as accounts or finance.

And I ended up after about three months, going like 'no accounts, just all technology'. And look, I just got my hands dirty.

And earlier in my career, I do count my blessings that I was in the travel industry, because that changed rapidly, I think it was probably the first industry to go through such disruption and challenge. And I got to be part of that.

And just just understanding how a business works and how technology supports that, and actually getting my hands dirty to try and change things.

That's kind of how I cut my teeth and moved on from the travel industry to a telco startup in 2degrees, that was kind of a big change. And it was all about high growth and moving fast.

And, you know, I've worked my way through a number of different industries. I did make a conscious choice fairly early in my career, to change industries within three to four years to try different things. And I think that served me well.

I don't think I've been -? well, actually, no, I haven't been - in the same industry twice; I have always moved on. Because you learn different things in different industries. So, I always think to myself as an engineer at heart.

I've always been hands on, building stuff in the early days. But as I've kind of grown and had great experiences, and some great mentors and leaders, have actually managed to pick up other business traits. And now I actually think 'customer first' works with the technology background.

But I could go into all sorts of weeds. But that's probably me - engineer at heart, but probably customer-need more is probably sums up my career. ? Cathy O'Sullivan?

And now you're in a very different industry. And you're the 娇色导航at LIC or the Livestock Improvement Corporation, which a lot of Kiwis may know about but not everyone may know exactly what you do.

So can you give us a bit of an overview of the organization and how you and the technology team support it? ? Dhaya Sivakumar?

Sure, so I had someone explain this to me, actually before I started, and it makes a lot of sense. We all know about Fonterra, being the co-operative.

But Fonterra is the output co-operative, so they have traditionally dealt with all the marketing and the branding of our products and sell them overseas. LIC - in simple terms - is the input co-operative, so things that happen on farm for productivity and sustainability, that's up LIC's alley.

So, our core purpose would be to breed better cows faster. And so basically, it'd be probably 90% of the cows, or, actually, probably officially probably 80% of the cows in New Zealand come via LIC. We're about genetics, making sure best genetics get into the cows.

And the reason for that is we can improve milk productivity on a smaller animal and also reduce the footprint of the animals.? So, more milk, less environmental impact and better cows and that's kind of what we do.

So, our adoption of our technologies so like MINDA, which is the app that our dairy farmers use, we've got 90% market share with that, or over 90% .

So, day in, day out our farmers use it and they track the animals and their behaviours and performance that way and so on.? And you know, a very seasonal business, so for a bulk of LIC, who are not in the head office, up and down the country, we're a logistics business getting cows and calf is their job.

And they're testing and diagnostics and sampling and genetics and that's what we do. So, to sum it up, a genetics business that's critically important to New Zealand's dairy industry.

And also, critically important to reduce things like our methane reduction, because we're going to hit our climate targets by genetics, and having less cows. And you do that through smart genetics and science. ? Cathy O'Sullivan?

Yeah it's such a fascinating organisation. And I must say, Dhaya, that visit to LIC and the farm tour and seeing the bulls in action, it was definitely one of the highlights of my career so far in this job. So thank you for that.

It certainly gave me a fascinating insight into what you what what the organization does. So look, tell us a bit more I guess about your team and the key achievements of the past year. You've you've mentioned things like the app and the penetration of that app.

How is your digitalisation journey overall tracking? ? Dhaya Sivakumar?

I've been at LIC for less than two years so I can only take credit for some work, there's been a lot of amazing work being done by lots of people before me.

So, look so I think it's simple, everything we do at LIC at the heart of it is genetic gain.

And over the last couple of years, we have spent a lot of time and invested a lot of capital into building our new platforms to make sure that genetic gain can happen and that we've got our scientists' back. That's all going incredibly well.

We're launching some new products now, which allows our farmers to look at the genetic evaluation. And that's all on the back of some of the amazing work we've done with some of our new tech. So, our new digital platforms has done that.

And we're really proud of where we've got to with that, largely on the likes of an Amazon stack and with partners such as Snowflake in the mix as well. So that's been probably key. I think the other parts have been MINDA and our data interoperability.

S,o you may have seen - well maybe not something in the mainstream - but certainly in the agri tech sector, there's been a whole lot of noise about interoperability.

LIC is taking, I'd suggest a leadership position here, we want to make sure that we have data interoperability across agriculture. And so with MINDA, our key MINDA product guys and engineers have made MINDA integrations a lead.

So, we actually integrate with everything - wearables, providers, farm automation, you name it, we make that happen now. And so we've led the way the last few months with launching some new products.

We now have an integration page, whether it's Fonterra or any other dairy companies, we can integrate with them, whether it's wearables - like Halter - we can integrate. So it's been a pretty amazing journey.

So one side is the data science side and making sure the platform is there and ready, the other side is actually around MINDA and data interoperability.

And I have to give a shout out to all of the core guys within tech team at LIC who run the business; as much as we can focus on the shiny stuff, there's a lot of work to happens at the core and Infosec that actually just keeps things running.

So it's been a great journey so far. And I know we'll talk a bit about the future later. But there's lots of more exciting stuff happening. ? Cathy O'Sullivan? Yeah, for sure.

And look, obviously interoperability is a key part of your focus. But just overall, I guess, what's your approach when it comes to your tech strategy?

I mean, it is a cooperative, how do you ensure that you know those IT initiatives that you're working on that they align with the overall strategic goals and mission of LIC? ? Dhaya Sivakumar?

I reckon I've always taken the same approach in the last probably 10 to 15 years that is 'park technology for a moment and actually get in front of a customer'.

So, if you've got customer empathy and, in our case, if you're sitting with a farmer or the farmer shareholders in LIC's case. You know what their problems are, you know, what has to be done.

And then you look at the macro level, what New Zealand's problems are as an agri sector or dairy industry, then you can start working out where we play. So we have to have that carried from a business perspective, what's important and where we play.

And then we support that through technology.? And look this stuff is so entwined now, like it used to be the olden days, you have a business strategy and tech's on the side, it doesn't work that way. They're very much required.

So to answer your question, when I first got to LIC i spent an immense amount of time yes with the team, the tech team,? but probably more time, if not I overindexed and spent time with shareholders, farmers, some of our directors in the senior leadership team just understand what was going on.? I actually then took that time with myself and actually my wider leadership team to spend time out on the site of our staff - so up and down the company, just looking at our depots and our operations and our sales team just to see what they're doing.

And once you've done that you can kind of form a view on what's important and what you need to focus on, and lineup what your priorities are. So that's where we've got to.

And I think of myself as a person who joins the dots, so you know, we've got lots of smart people across the executive table and in our board, but just joining the dots and pulling it together to say 'OK, well this is how we are going to focus technology to deliver that'.

That's been what I've been doing.? But at our heart we're a data science and genetics business and that's how technology should work. ? Cathy O'Sullivan?

Now, speaking of data, there's been a lot of noise around things like AI. And are there any emerging technologies, you know, whether it's AI, or IoT, or anything else that in that you and the team already have in place or looking to implement at LIC? ? Dhaya Sivakumar?

It's one of these things,? look like everybody else, where we will be spending a lot of time and probably a lot of investment in AI.

I think we almost overstate some of the stuff because I think some of the automation that's happening with their software vendors and software patterns, they will just be pervasive. It'll be in our tech that we use.

So we don't need to necessarily overthink it, I think where we will probably use it is with our scientists in terms of genomic evaluation, how it could help them and the approach, because I think what it allows for them is to process much more data and get much more through the work they have with the support of AI technology.

In terms of our business itself, looking ahead, we're building a strategy around our enterprise systems and our back office.

And I do think there's an opportunity for some of the tech to help us and actually make some of our systems that we run at the moment for our customer orders much, much smoother.

So one part about LIC which we talked about earlier is, we are pretty much a logistics business, we have trucks up and down the country that go and process milk samples and other samples. And running all that at the moment, it can be a bit clunky.

And I do think automation with the help of AI, they could make that very, very different.

So I had a conversation with the CEO around one of the high tables yesterday, you're just showing me a farmer who used - it was ChatGPT -? to look at their breeding traits, and the evaluation, genetic evaluation and just found that on his own, it was a 50-year-old farmer or older farmer actually.? He had put all his data into ChatGPT and it actually worked.

So it actually helped him with his genomic evaluation and his own decisions on the farm.

So I think the more you think about that kind of tech, the more that will be embedded in our software and better the lives of our farmers so we just need to make it easy.

At a personal level, not LIC related, I'm in love with self-driving cars, I gotta say, that's one of my deep passions. I cannot wait to like just get in the car and tell the car to drive me somewhere.

And that's just becoming very, very real and I'm obsessed by it. I just sit there looking at YouTube or the progress of different software versions and how it's going.

But I think that will be massively different I think if we have things like self-driving cars and people don't need to own cars, it has a big difference in the world and probably sustainability as well. ? Cathy O'Sullivan?

Yeah, it's fascinating seeing those Waymo cars out and about in the streets of the US, I'm sure we'll see them here at some point as well in the not-too-distant future.

And so look Dhaya, and obviously you you've got a lot going on at LIC and you are looking at cutting edge technology there.

But there's also you know that the every day, that maintenance of your existing IT infrastructure and systems, how do you balance that, you know, pushing on with innovation with just the core maintenance that's required? ? Dhaya Sivakumar?

Yeah look, we've got to do both. And I'm going to fess up and say we're not perfect. And no one ever is right? Everyone's always looking at the operations and going oh, that could be better or that could be better. I think it's like spinning plates.

I think you almost have to be a little bit schizophrenic being in a 娇色导航role, or senior leadership role. You have to continually sell to staff, board, management, around the possibilities and what can happen in the future.

But then you also have to look at what you're doing now and what you're managing. And, and you got to keep both sets engaged.

I remember that there's always roles which we have at LIC in our system, we have a core group of people running the machine who need investment, who need looking after, and they actually need some attention.

And then you've got a whole lot of new on the other side, you got to do both. So how do you balance it? I think you have to bounce opportunity with the risk continually. And you have to have that conversation with your board and your exec team.

So they need to be aware of both sides, if you're just talking to the board, as an example, on just the shiny new opportunities, they don't, they're not aware of the risk, that's dangerous. And vice versa.

If you just talked about defending what you have and you know, protecting it and not actually looking at how you grow it then that's also dangerous. So you just have to know that you've got to give both equal airtime. Not an easy job.

And I have been guilty in the past and early in my career,? of focusing far too much in terms of defending what we had and protecting it, as opposed to growth and actually I've also been guilty the other way around. So finding that balance is very tricky.

But you need to make the right risk-based decisions for your business. ? Cathy O'Sullivan?

And of course, one of the big areas of risk that I know keeps CIOs up at night is, of course, cybersecurity. And data is just so fundamental to what you and the team look after there at LIC. So what's your approach, then when it comes to cybersecurity?

And what are you thinking about when it comes to both the privacy and security of all that data that are in your systems? ? Dhaya Sivakumar?

This probably is similar to that last question. So at its core, I do believe in secure by design, so actually make sure you design the software or your system so that we secure innately as opposed to try and put sticky plaster on afterwards.

I do subscribe to the view, by investing properly, and by modernizing, you are so much better. So that's always the first principle like make sure you actually modernize and keep your systems up to date.

I remember the old days having some arguments way, way back with some more of our board about just as long as it's in the cloud? Because it back in the early days, it was considered to be risky, right? I think it's a risk not to do it.

Because I think there's far more exposure to having legacy items sitting behind someone's desk being maintained the old ways. So simple answer to your question, I think focus on investment and making sure we modernize and don't leave anything behind.

So you always have to keep thinking about what does the world look like in 10 years' time? All those systems are causing pain or keeping me up at night? How can you resolve them? The thing that really keeps them up at night is back to your AI question.

There's a capability of the, you know, the hackers or cybercriminals, with the new AI capability, in terms of being able to attack people, that's what worries me. But by unplugging and just locking everything in a corner is not going to work.

You actually have to continue to modernize your business and actually make sure your data stuff sitting on modern platforms.

And you got to make a case? - in my role or any other 娇色导航role - you've got to make a case to your board that by investing you're actually protecting and growing at the same time. ? Cathy O'Sullivan?

Yeah, no, for sure. And that. Yeah, those evolving threats when it comes to AI and how bad bad actors are using that when it comes to attacks is just frightening. And so you mentioned a few partners that you work with at LIC.

But in general, what do you look for when you're going out to market, you're selecting providers or partners, what makes a good partnership from your point of view? ? Dhaya Sivakumar?

It starts with people, like you don't want - and I've said this time and time again - but you want to deal with people you like. So there has to be some kind of a relationship, but if there's not, it's just not going to work.

Most good partnerships are built up - probably like marriages in some ways - on trust, trust and credibility and that takes a bit of time. So good partners are long term partners that you've been on a journey together with, there's got to be performance.

But the biggest thing I look for is adaptability. So the world is changing and it's going to change even faster. Our partners can't be stuck in just one way of doing business, they've got to be thinking ahead.

They've got to be bringing some thought leadership to the table about how the world could look and taking us on the journey as well. So I look at that in partners and you know, that's... New Zealand's a funny landscape as well.

I actually think I like partners who think broader than just what's in New Zealand because if you limit yourself to your existing customers and existing customer base, you're missing out on opportunities. So adaptability, thought leadership, but underlined by performance, they've actually got to make the grade as well.

? Cathy O'Sullivan?

Now switching gears a bit, how would you describe your own leadership style? ? Dhaya Sivakumar? It's very dangerous!

Look, as I've said before, I have changed a lot so and I notice about myself earlier on in my career, I was very conservative, you know, like, can I build out spreadsheets and check everything a thousand times before I did anything. I have changed a lot.

I'm far more... I probably lead far more by gut and by intuition and by relationships now than I ever did before. And so my style with my direct reports, I want to make that my performance.

So I looked at all of my team, and I say all of these guys and girls, they should be? able to replace me when I eventually leave somewhere like LIC. So what's it going to take for them to do that?

And everybody's different and everyone's different in their leadership journey. So how do I work with each of them to actually make sure that they've got the right skills and balance to make that work?

My number one golden rule for leadership is to always tell my people that what we do is just a job. It is just a job. And they shouldn't worry about their job being the be all and end all.

Have a balanced life; trust your intuition and have a go at stuff.

And I think the worst thing people can do is not be themselves and try and design themselves to be this perfect thing that doesn't exist.? Be themselves and trust themselves and have a balanced life as well.

Ultimately is given me the same thing, it always comes down to people. You can have the perfect plan laid on bit of paper, that's excellent, but if you cannot communicate that, and sell it, it won't work. So people, people come first. ? Cathy O'Sullivan?

Yeah absolutely, a 娇色导航is only as good as their team. So just broadening that out, then I mean, I've been down to your offices; I've seen you know, the vibe that's there, it's it's definitely a very vibrant space to work in.

So tell us a bit more about your approach. You mentioned there about growing your leadership team. But what else do you do in terms of getting the best out of the team and making it feel like an environment where they can thrive? ? Dhaya Sivakumar?

Yeah, the vibe hasn't always been good down there. If we were really honest with ourselves and we've put f a lot of effort in the last couple of years to change that. It all starts with a couple of things. One, people need purposeful work.

So they actually need to believe that they're coming up and do something important, which at LIC we absolutely are given our mission. The second thing is people want to be part of something, they want to belong.

So I mean, you will have probably got that impression, if you walked around that, people love the place and they do. The last 12 months we have done that many different ways. I'm a food lover. And we probably over-index on food.

So we've had donut days and pie days, and KFC days. So I'm a big Warriors fan - as you can probably see in the background. Every time the Warriors won last year, I brought KFC to give to everybody. So that helped.

But actually, it all comes down to environment, right? We've got a very safe, really happy environment. And actually, in the last engagement survey we did,? the psychological safety, and to put that in perspective, it's just outstanding.

Like people felt they could come up to anybody to say whatever they felt and that's what it takes. I think if you want to unlock people, you need to make an effort. And so the environment here has been great, it has been led by food.

You know, we do things like on a Friday, like just this morning, we had, I call it our? buzz meeting,? every Friday morning we have an informal team catch-up for 10 to 15 minutes.

And obviously, we give a bit of kudos out to people and we call out great performers, but we will also just have fun. So look, it probably reflects my personality, like I'm quite laidback, like to have a laugh;?we do serious work but you don't have to be serious.

This also echoes with my senior leadership colleagues as well. So we've had a lot of fun in the last couple of years.

And I was talking to David, our CEO, that we had a KFC pie bake-off between myself and the CEO a few months ago, but it was a subject of such great conversation, right, and it just eases the tension.

And you know you can have fun with your mates as well as doing good work. ? Cathy O'Sullivan?

Yeah, absolutely injecting the fun into it. And so another part of making a successful team is of course diversity.

And IT has, you know, suffered in the past from being seen, as you know, a very male dominated space, and it is improving, but what do you think can be done to attract more people from different backgrounds to consider IT? as a career, what kind of practical things can be done to encourage minds of all kinds to get into the industry.

? Dhaya Sivakumar?

It's something that's near and dear to my heart, Cathy. So I think there's a gender imbalance and having two young daughters who've been through school and uni, it starts at school because unfortunately, you know girls and boys in tech classes,? doesn't always work.

Because lets face it, teenage boys aren't necessarily the best people. And when they are in those classes and the types of boys who take some of those tech classes really put girls off. So we really have to try sort that out somehow.

And I know my girls, what did they do?

Tech and coding and while they've done well it was an uphill battle from an early age.? So for the education sector needs to talk about how we do that.? The part that's really close to my heart, though is the diversity in terms of the people entering the system.

So I do think we've got a representation problem with Māori and Pasifika, the stats are really, really poor. I think the stat is about 4%.

And that's just not good enough.? And I see a massive problem coming for for New Zealand, when we have lots of higher paid tech workers and then a whole lot of other people who are going to be finding it very challenging. So lots of automation and AI.

And unless we do something about that then we then we're going to be in big trouble, we're going to have a big inequality problem - we do today.

If you look at, so I'm personally invested this space; I do run a charitable trust that actually tries to look at helping Māori and Pacific into technology.? A lot of that comes back to family and whānau and when they're young, because a lot of people don't understand that tech careers are even possible.

So it's actually for us as tech leaders to get out there and actually promote what is possible. I'm doing it through gaming - I'm a gamer, I love gaming.

So we run a gaming club events on Fridays and Saturdays in South Auckland and in West Auckland and get groups of kids together to play games and enjoy the game and through that we start teaching them tech. And then they start getting a passion for it.

During the same time as we actually talked to their parents as well, because it never, it never occurred to me but the parents don't actually understand that tech careers are possible or that they even exist.

So actually us getting in there and influencing the parents has been really helpful. So look, how we do that at scale, that's the challenge. I think, as all New Zealanders, we probably have responsibility for the education sector to make sure that there's awareness of tech careers.

And that actually everyone here who are probably listening to this podcast? is a teacher or potential role model. And it's one of those things is, if you can find someone who looks like you doing something, you have some self belief about it. We just need to do more.

So. So start young from a diversity point of view, from a Māori and Pasifika perspective, and set it up to make some kind of passion in there. ? Cathy O'Sullivan?

And as you say, spreading the awareness as well with the wider family and the parents and the people who are influential in people's lives as well is a great inroad.

And so just broadening it out, then, you know, what do you think are some of the other challenges facing CIOs in New Zealand at the moment and particular, anything for CIOs in your sector? ? Dhaya Sivakumar?

I couldn't honestly talk about CIOs in my sector, because I don't actually think I have a sector. You know, as I said, before I've bounced around industries quite a bit.

So look, I would say, if I was to sum up agriculture, I think the agri tech area has probably suffered from a lack of investment or the lack of need to be competitive technology? in terms of the back office solutions.

We've always been great and cutting-edge when it comes to things like wearable technology and on-farm technology but the backend data part, we haven't been great at that. So I think that's changing.

If I'm thinking more broadly, or in a general lens, I think the 娇色导航landscape here, it probably suffered from being boxed into a technical role.

So for most businesses, tech roles are seen as a back office support, as opposed to at the front, working with the business trying to help with what the future customer proposition looks like. And I do think here's also another space where we're schizophrenic.

If you look at the SaaS startup world that we have in New Zealand I think we have some amazing people. There's some great product leadership and some great thoughts.

But then you've got the corporate 娇色导航roles, which tend to be a little bit more back office, focus on the infrastructure and back-end finance systems, etc. I think those two need to come together a little bit more.

So some of the CIOs that we have in those roles should be providing thought leadership to those organizations around where they could actually go.

So if you're a technical person in a 娇色导航role start to think more about customer, a bit more about customer proposition, and you will become so much more powerful. ? Cathy O'Sullivan?

Yeah, it's definitely evolving that 娇色导航role more so into that advisory, you know, helping enable the business with strategy rather than being an order taker. And so what are your hopes then for the next generation of CIOs coming through? What advice would you give them? ? Dhaya Sivakumar?

Yeah, I actually think the 娇色导航has probably become the most important voice around the exec table. If? you think about where you all have different senior exec roles, they all need technology.

And not everybody is going to be a technology expert, so you need to become the coach or the guide, and do it in a way in where you value relationships, and coaching as opposed to, you know, holding your portfolio.

So I think, as we progress down the track, you're gonna see the next generation come through to their senior management roles, they will be more tech-aligned then they are at the moment. They'll probably be more familiar with some of the solutions that are out there at the moment.

And I think the technology role - whether it is 娇色导航or CTO -? needs to help them with some leadership there, but also needs to find a good balance between trying some stuff and actually preserving and security measures, which is no different to what it is now.

But I think, the biggest change in their roles, so they'll be coming out of the shell and actually being in the frontline of the exec team and actually partnering. ? Cathy O'Sullivan?

And then finally, Dhaya, what's important to you in the months ahead. Are there any other exciting initiatives in the pipeline? ? Dhaya Sivakumar?

So LIC, we're doing... at the moment, I'm shaping a lot of work around what our future could look like with my team.

So senior management at LIC have a good view on some of the challenges and opportunities facing us, taking our board through what that looks like and prioritizing and then actually messaging that down to the team, getting them involved, that's going to be able to come in a few months.

We're doing lots of exciting stuff, but also commitment and investment for lots of exciting stuff. But I think we're gonna do a lot more; just shaping that and making sure that we do it the right way and bringing everybody on that journey is important to me.

So one of the highlights for me is going to be the sales conference, the LIC internal sales conference next month. Actually, next month... it'sJuly, it's this month!

It's a great opportunity to get in front of all of our sales team up and down the country and actually get them excited, to get them excited about the tools that we can provide to them.

And so they can feel passionate and go back and sell that to our customers.

So not something I'd normally say that's in the job description but it's critically important, right, if you do that and you get in front of your sales team, you get your sales team excited, they get excited for the customers and then they are going to back you.? And they'll be very much in the tent with whatever journey they've got.? So setting the vision long-term, getting the buy-in, getting the investment, getting all those people across LIC on the bus, especially the tech team.

That's that's what my mission is for sort of the next three months. ? Cathy O'Sullivan?

And I'm sure there'll be a few more KFC and pie days to come. ? Dhaya Sivakumar?

It's all been tied to the Warriors before, and hasn't been quite good this year but you know, we'll see. ? Cathy O'Sullivan?

We'll hope, we'll hope that they bring it home at the weekend!? Dhaya Sivakumar, Chief Information Officer at LIC, thank you so much for your time today. ? Dhaya Sivakumar? Thank you, Cathy.

It's been great.