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Cathy O'Sullivan: ? Welcome to 娇色导航Leadership Live. I'm Cathy O'Sullivan, editorial director for 娇色导航in Australia and New Zealand. And today I'm speaking with Jonathan Southee, who is the Chief Information and Technology Officer at New Zealand Rugby. Kia ora Jono, great to be chatting with you today. ?

Jonathan Southee: Kia ora Cathy, great to be here. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan: ? So first of all, can you share a little bit of your career journey so far, and what are some of the key highlights that have led up to your role as the Ito at New Zealand Rugby? ?

Jonathan Southee: Okay, going back a little way after I finished studying, I actually went over to Australia, like I think a lot of Kiwis do, and I was fortunate to land a job at Coca-Cola Amatil.

I spent about 10 years there, and I think I really benefited from spending a lot of time in a large company. There was a really wide range of work to get onto a lot of good networking opportunities and people to meet and people to learn from.

But I kind of found my way into the SAP program, which I didn't know would be such hard work at the time, but it was a fantastic opportunity, and I learned a lot from a lot of great leaders and people that were on that program.

And once we got through doing that, after quite a few years, that's when I really got my opportunity to move into kind of more digital and technology innovation, so into e-commerce, which was new at the time, and feels old.

And I feel old saying it, we got into image recognition. We were the first bottler in the world to do that, working with a small startup out of Israel and Singapore, which has gone on to become a unicorn.

And we did some really revolutionary things for Field Sales and call centers at the time, which are probably quite boring and commonplace now, but felt like I really got got a hold of it, and really had the first opportunity for technology to make a difference in an organisation like that.

I moved in, back to New Zealand, coming up 10 years ago now, and started working in with Kiwi Wealth in their digital program, and launched the first digital identity for KiwiSaver in New Zealand, which was really, really exciting again at the time, And is sort of feels quite commonplace now, and often technology just moves on like that and but then so I moved on from there and went to New Zealand Trade & Enterprise, which was my kind of first foray into the public sector, but also my first foray into working with like a truly global business.

So we had 50 sites around the world working with New Zealand exporters to take them to the world, which was just just an amazing reason to come to work every day. Really uplifting hearing about how we could help New Zealand businesses go international.

More recently, I then took on the role of 娇色导航at New Zealand Parliament through the 2023 election. I actually had the joy of having three prime ministers in one year.

In 2023 the election was the last one, and is still the current one in the year parliament is like, like nothing I've ever worked in, and just what those people do every day to make the country function was was a pleasure to be a part of.

And in the last year, I spent it at New Zealand Rugby, which is probably the only organisation covered more by the media than parliament, so that that seems to be a common thread recently. Yeah, and so that's where we're up to now. ? ?

Cathy O'Sullivan: So from one iconic New Zealand organisation to another, and of course, New Zealand Rugby, it is known for its excellence, both on and off the field. And as an Irish person, that hurts me to say,...

but so how does your technology team support the organisation's broader goals? ?

Jonathan Southee: Yeah, I think it surprised me coming here, how much technology is intertwined with various parts of the business. You know, you think about rugby and you think, oh, maybe that's not actually much of a technology business, but it's actually more than you think.

I think the kind of the two really key areas that is in sort of player technology, which is coming at it from both a high performance lense, but also community lense. So we have, you know, a couple of 100,000 community players, volunteers, referees, supporters.

They they have to be able to register and pay and run match days and substitutions and scoring and all of that stuff, which we've just put in a new system for this season, rugby Explorer. So that's been really exciting.

And then on the high performance side, we're dealing with provincial unions, Super Rugby clubs, and of course, our teams in black to put together a technology ecosystem where it's really player centric and the data is able to be analysed and monitored, and so that we get the best out of the players and the players get the best out of themselves.

I think on the other side of that, there's probably the technology that New Zealanders are more familiar with, which is the fan facing technology. So that's your sort of, your ticketing, your your merchandise, your content, your web, all of that stuff. But increasingly that's becoming globally focused.

We have around 100 million bands internationally, which is obviously far greater than the population of New Zealand.

I think New Zealanders are full up on rugby, so we've got to keep them interested in in the All Blacks, or the Black Ferns or the super or provincial clubs, but increasingly, we're going global and talking to those fans internationally. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan: ? So talk to us more about that. So you know New Zealand Rugby, as you said, it's got a passionate fan base, whether that's here in New Zealand or or globally.

So how are you using technology to enhance that fan engagement, and for those that can get along to the matches, how do you improve that match day experience? ?

Jonathan Southee: Yeah, I think if we think about a team like the All Blacks, those match days, there's 14 of them a year, you know?

So we're, we're in the hundreds of 1000s of people that get to go to a stadium, and we kind of see those as more like tentpole moments or opportunities where people can really engage with the match which is, which is meaningful and exciting and but we've, we've been working really hard to think about, how do we engage fans year round, which is unsurprisingly going taking us down a content path.

So having launched NZR+, and then tapping into the the player ecosystem, the archive, hearing from fans what sort of content they want, and then producing shoulder content, or other other bits of content that we can disperse throughout the year and engage fans with rugby throughout that's that's increasingly where it's going, which is a common pattern for a lot of sports for how they engage with their audiences.

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Cathy O'Sullivan: ? So tell us some more about your approach then to things like e-commerce and ticketing. You know? How do you make that seamless for fans? ?

Jonathan Southee: Yeah, e-commerce is a particularly good one, because when, when we were thinking of ourselves as a kind of a domestic business or a New Zealand focused business, we shipped every every jersey or T shirt or pair of shorts out of New Zealand.

And I think in the age of in the age of Amazon shipping stuff and taking weeks to get there isn't really it's not really acceptable anymore. So we've partnered globally with a company called Fanatics.

We run major distribution hubs out of all the major continents - Asia, Europe, the Americas, Australia, Pacific - and we have bought an increased range to those to those fans, that is tailored for those markets.

We've also decreased shipping time, so we're down under a couple of days to get you the products that you need to follow, the teams that you follow in the markets that you're in, so just getting much closer to the customer much sooner, and that's reaping really, really great rewards.

And in the US last year, where we played the San Diego test, the US market has like an insatiable thirst for merchandise.

You might have picked that up when you watch us sports, and we were generally surprised by it as well, even though it extends into rugby, which isn't kind of one of their main product offerings.

So yeah, really looking forward to going back there this year for Chicago against Ireland, actually, Cathy, so maybe we have to watch that one. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan: Yeah, might have to have a bet on that one, Jono!? So listen, you also have your NZ Fantasy and player stat site, and they obviously are another way to engage fans with the game.

So tell us about you know what your technology and data platforms and how they play out in bringing those sites to life. ?

Jonathan Southee: Yeah, Fantasy has been a really good one for us this year. It's considered kind of table stakes.

If you look at a lot of sports leagues and competitions around the world, whether it's cricket or baseball or NFL, but it's a great way for fans to engage either a little bit with the group of their friends or colleagues, or some, you know, some sort of group that they already exist as part of, but also for really deep fans to go really deep on player analysis and teams.

And so, it's a good one that can play to a bunch of needs, and people get pretty into it. We saw some really good uptake early in the season, and our drop off rate has been kind of less than most in the industry average.

We use a partner and there to help us with that, and they, they've been excellent at helping guide us on the best way to implement Fantasy for Super Rugby. Yeah, New Zealanders in particular, really taken, taken to that that product.

One thing that's really interesting is, aside from all of the kind of tackle and tries and all of the kind of traditional data, it's also forced us to think a little bit differently about what data is accessible to fans, and one of those is injury.

So rugby has been probably a little bit closed off around injury data, certainly when you compare us to sports like football.

But Fantasy has kind of forced us into a place where we have to be quite transparent around injuries and who's who's available, who's not, which I think is a good result for fans, in a way to keep products like Fantasy more engaging. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan: Now switching gears a bit. I know, obviously team culture is is massive anyway at New Zealand Rugby, for your your people out on the field, but building a strong team culture in it is also critical.

So what do you think are some of those key elements that contribute to a high performing and engaged tech team? ?

Jonathan Southee: ? Yeah, I think when I walked in, I sort of thought the technology team would be full of rugby people that got to do work on computers. Actually not the case.

And I think that's, that's how we're successful, is we have people that both have long, passionate histories with rugby, but we also have people that are passionate about technology and their role.

And I think the blend of the two is actually a really nice, nice mix for us, so that we don't so we don't just just think about things from, necessarily, from a rugby lens.

We're thinking about it from, say, whether it's a community or social lens, or whether it's a global fan base lens. Like there's other ways to think about how we deliver the best experiences for our players and our fans.

So the blend of the two has been, has been excellent, and I think keeps us having some perspective over what we're doing and how we're doing it. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan: Now, another thing that can impact on culture is, of course, you know, having to deal with individuals who might be technically strong but don't really contribute in a positive way to collaborating with others in the team or to the culture overall.

So what's been your experience with that? You know, how do you navigate these type of situations? ?

Jonathan Southee: I think first of all, there isn't really, like a right way. It's about people are going to be different at every organisation, and have been in my experience.

So I think first of all, I usually seek to understand what is going on for people, both in work and outside of work, once, once we understand that if people aren't kind of reaching their potential or aren't growing, that limits your potential as a team, and so you could be technically strong or not technically strong.

But what we're trying to do is is realize the potential of a team, and so it's then about working out what gets the best out of people.

And for me, I think that gets easier over time, because you know people better early doors, I think I find myself asking a lot of questions, trying to uncover what the facts are, what people believe, how people work best, but then, usually, within six or 12 months, we can usually work out a pretty good plan as a team, and usually get that blend right between technical capability and you.

And what people are individually contributing to culture. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan: So fear can also be a roadblock in building a good culture. So how are you fostering that environment? You know where your your team feels they can feel safe to take risks and to innovate. ? ?

Jonathan Southee: Yeah, I think sports is a really great analogy for this, in that usually when you innovate, it's usually publicly visible, and whether we're talking about fans or whether we're talking about high performance, and actually, if you fail to innovate, you usually fall further behind, and you fall behind faster.

But then when you do innovate, your opposition or the market kind of learns about what you're doing, and then you've got to innovate again.

So I think the way I think about that with my teams is that we technology is an important part of whatever our business strategy is around high performance or community or fans, and then we're just thinking about, how can we continuously improve those kind of strategic focus areas, but knowing that when we do do well, we're probably going to have to do something again, different and better to keep at the front which is, which is a hard spot to be.

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Cathy O'Sullivan: And tell us then about your approach to prioritisation. You know, how do you ensure the team focuses on doing the right things, rather than just getting things done? ?

Jonathan Southee: ? Yeah, look, I guess we try to treat people as grown-ups around here. So, I'm not a big advocate for probably some heavy-handed methodologies, things like Agile is not my, it's not my jam.

I would prefer that people and teams and the teams that they're working with find the best way to get things done.

And I think what we're increasingly seeing, certainly at rugby and some of the other places that are working, is that technology is part of a group of people that are trying to achieve an outcome.

And I think when those groups of people get together, whether it's tech, marketing, comms, finance, whoever it is, when they get really clear on those outcomes, then they're able to work out the routines that achieve that, rather than me telling you, these are the routines, regardless of the outcome, I think that's a bit foolish.

So yeah, and it seems to be working, okay. And so I spend more time as a leader trying to generate that context for people so that they can achieve what they need to. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan: And many organisations, they still see IT, they see technology as a cost centre rather than a value generator. So how do you shift that perception? ?

Jonathan Southee: I think the words that I use often are like return on investment, and there's a there's a financial outcome to most things, and whether that's a cost down or a revenue up, I think we need to be really aware as technology knowledge.

Technology and what it's doing to either of those outcomes. Sometimes it can be both.

Sometimes it's just one, but usually the way I think about it is, if we've got our costs under control and well managed and well governed, then that affords us time and credibility when we want to enter into the revenue generation conversations with our business stakeholders.

So if, but if you don't have control of those costs first and foremost, then doing the you have much less credibility at the revenue conversation. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan: Now, switching gears a bit, and interns can be a great way to bring new talent into the industry. So what's been your experience around successful approaches to introducing young people into IT? ?

Jonathan Southee: ? I 100% agree interns are a fantastic way to give people exposure to both organisations teams and industries like technology.

And I probably fumbled this a little bit like when I first took on some interns few jobs back, they were a bit wide, so too many things thought kind of that would be a good way to do it. It didn't work out so well.

They were like kind of overwhelmed, which is a pretty bad place to be. We got better at that kind of the second year, we introduced more of like a buddy program, and then aligned them to projects which was which was even better.

And then finally, we then sort of integrated interns into our recruitment strategy. So where could a three or four month intern turn into a 12 month contract or or a permanent gig.

So we thought about them, and we planned for them sort of year round, so we know that we'd have an option to maybe hold a vacancy open for a couple of months to select from our intern pool, which was a great way to bring people through for them and for us.

So they got to know if they liked working here, and we got to understand where their strengths and weaknesses were. So really great way. But yeah, I think a bit being a bit tighter with their focus early on was really key to success in that area. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan: ? And what advice would you give to someone who was aspiring to be a CIO? What do you wish you knew when you were starting out? ?

Jonathan Southee: Probably be a bit braver than you think. I think there's lots of things in technology that you as a leader, have decision making power over, and you should look to be a bit little bit brave with those decisions.

I think we often get caught as technologists as maybe trying to incrementally get to places.

And I think sometimes just when you know you can just cut to the chase, make a bit of a call and try to try to land it a little bit out there, you can actually produce a much greater upside in a much shorter time and have a much greater impact on on an organization.

You'll get a few of those things wrong, but I was probably been a little bit braver. ?

Cathy O'Sullivan: And finally, then Jonathan, what is important to you and the months ahead? Any other big projects on the roadmap for New Zealand Rugby? ?

Jonathan Southee: Just the 2025 World Cup. So we've got the Black Ferns traveling over to the UK for the Women's World Cup later this year. So we'll be doing everything we can to get in behind them as a team, as as an organization, as a technology group.

So if you're over that way, go buy ticket. If you're not, you can watch them on NZR+ ?

Cathy O'Sullivan: Well, we look forward to the Women's Rugby World Cup, and of course, that match in November between Ireland and the All Blacks in Chicago. Jonathan Southee, Chief Information and Technology Officer at New Zealand Rugby, thank you so much for joining us today. ?

Jonathan Southee:? Thanks, Cathy, great to be on.?