娇色导航

Keith Shaw: Hi everybody. Welcome to Global Tech Tales, the show where we talk with editors from around the world about the latest technology and leadership topics, and hear from stories from IT leaders about what they are looking for. I'm Keith Shaw co hosting along with Matt Egan.

He is the global content and editorial director at Foundry, who is also representing the UK and North America. And this month, we are joined by Carl Friedmann. He is the Executive Editor for EMEA. Do you pronounce that EMEA, or, you know, just EMEA? Yeah, either one is good.

And he's also representing foundry. Now, we've got something weird. Is that you are from the US, Carl, but you're in the UK. Matt is in the UK, but he also represents North America. And I'm somewhere in the middle of everything. So welcome everybody. Hands Across the ocean.

World, part one world, right. There you go. There you go. So on this episode, we're going to be talking about AI savvy, IT leadership strategies.

The reason that we're that we wanted to discuss this on this episode is that the AI revolution is creating new opportunities for IT executives to basically up their game in terms of driving innovation, growth and productivity, but will this require new IT leadership skills?

And you know, what are they going to need to do as new technologies, not just generative AI, but as we get into the world of AI, agents, digital employees, all of that stuff, there's going to be pitfalls and obstacles along the way.

So we're going to kind of jump into that. So for the first part of the show, we always start off with some statistics. Some of these stats may have nothing to do with the show that we're going to be discussing, but I find them interesting.

So I've got four little different statistics, and I want you to just kind of like take this all in and see how this applies to our discussion later on.

But first off, there was a survey by General Assembly that found only 42% of executives said that they feel very or extremely confident in using AI tools without compromising company data. ?

And in addition, 27% reported low confidence in their ability to use AI tools responsibly. And the same survey showed that 39% of executives lack the knowledge to make informed decisions when hiring AI vendors. So that's out there.

The second one was that, according to a Pluralsight AI skills report, 95% of IT leaders believe that AI projects will fail without staff who can effectively use AI tools, and only 40% of organizations are offering formal AI training for employees.

And that was a cio.com article, by the way. Third, there was a McKinsey report that showed another disconnect between leadership and employees.

63% of business leaders say that they believe their organization will be aI ready in the next two years, where only 22% of employees are sharing this optimism.

And finally, there was an edX survey that found that 92% of 500 chief executives plan to improve their AI skills within the next 12 to 24 months, showing a recognition that of the need for enhanced AI literacy at the executive level.

So that, again, we're going to talk for CIOs and other IT leaders. That's the executive letter. But we're also going to discuss employees, and those are the people that basically, you know, they manage.

So remember, we're going to be looking for stories here that of when you talk to IT leaders, the stats are showing that across all levels, there is some concern about this level of skills and knowledge when it comes to AI, and it also seems to be an undercurrent of where to dedicate the training and upskilling in this space.

So when you're talking to IT leaders, Matt and Carl, what are they saying? And you know about this, the about the level of training that people think that they need.

I mean, what I'm hearing overall is the most important thing a tech leader can do is create an environment that produces more good leaders. ?

Carl Friedmann: What that environment is, kind of varies from company to company, but empowering employees is, you know, by whatever means, is kind of the foundation that needs to be laid. A big challenge for CIOs, though, is identifying candidates with technical skills and the right mindset.

So that's people who can, you know, apply industry specific Gen AI to solve business problems, not just adopt a tool or some tech first approach, so that needs a deep understanding of the business context and how to integrate Gen AI into practical solutions.

So AI isn't a fix unto itself, but if a business is good at delivering transformation, it'll probably be good at wielding AI, dedicating time and resources to ensure staff are confident using, you know, AI in their roles. ?

Keith Shaw: Yeah, and Matt, when you when you hear from it, leaders are is enough Attention being a pay paid to skilling up, skilling training knowledge to understand the AI, or are they just kind of going and hoping that they'll do this on their own?

? Matt Egan: Yeah.

I mean, first of all, brilliant stats, Keith, because I think that really sets the scene as to to, you know, the the broadness of the challenge here.

And I loved that feedback, Carl, because, yeah, I think, you know, one of the things you said there was, was around the idea of developing people and skills rather than kind of going straight to the sort of specific technical capabilities. And I would certainly endorse that.

And you know, if I could throw in stats myself, we saw in our own state of the 娇色导航survey recently, like that, the the the general trend is that CIOs see their current main responsibilities around things like security, operations, infrastructure, but they think they see themselves spending more and more time over the next years around strategic initiatives, of which AI is is clearly, clearly the high principle, right?

So what does that mean in terms of how you manage yourself, when you manage your teams, I was fortunate enough to see a really interesting panel conversation recently featuring the 娇色导航of one of the world's largest white goods manufacturers, an organization with more than 40,000 employees.

And he was saying, just as an example, that within that organization, they're identifying people in all roles, not just it, at all levels of the organization, and they're giving them regular time and training in the potential of AI and AI platforms and the ethics and the considerations right, specifically agentic AI, but all outputs of AI and their thinking is that We know we we can't know the potential or limitations of a new technology, but we can empower people throughout the organization to think proactively about solutions that utilized AI, but also educate and empower their peers and spread this kind of thinking across the organization.

And you know, we've seen similar approaches across a wide variety of organizations over the past several years. You know, technical conceptual training as an inspiration, ?

proof of concept projects, which was definitely 2024 right? There are as much about disseminating skills and knowledge and finding what works as they are about succeeding on their own terms.

So if I combine kind of the statistical market view that you presented us with, Keith and Carl's really insight.

I think, you know, look, it's hard to train for a specific future that may look different to your current expectations, but I am sensing that there's this move to kind of empower people to tackle that future with confidence. ?

Keith Shaw: It is AI skills training, something that the IT group can take ownership of. And say, you know, because normally, training of employees usually is handled by either a training department or maybe HR does some training. But you know, it feels like that.

This is so important for the entire company that the IT group should be the ones that are that are taking charge. And I'm wondering if you're hearing that as well. ?

Matt Egan: I mean, in my experience, it really varies wildly, right? And I'd love to hear from Carl on this, because he is speaking to CIOs day in, day out.

But I think, you know, what I've seen is it kind of speaks back to that overall core point, which is, is the IT strategy, supporting the business strategy, or is the IT strategy, the business strategy, and therefore, is the 娇色导航a support staff or a leader of change?

Right? I've seen various support, I think, within it and strategy, most organizations have come to the point of having, like a named individual or team with overall responsibility for AI, maybe projects and solutions, maybe strategy. Most organizations have got lots of technical training within their IT departments.

But to your point, Keith, there's the extra thing of, like, everybody's got to be involved in this solution.

And then I think it goes a little bit further right, because within the IT department, there's, I guess, the wider issue of what might call AI inside, what drudge work, what toil in all roles can be replaced by agentic or generative AI.

And what does that mean in terms of your human workforce? That's more of a technical thing.

A lot of organizations are planning for a world in which, and I know we'll probably touch on this later, but in which, you know, AI is replacing humans, but humans are then directing the AI.

So I think, again, it's one of my classic answers, Keith, I think, I think I've seen both approaches, and I'm not sure which is best. There's definitely this move where it is in charge of technical skills, for for IT people.

But I think a broader level, you know, the more mature organizations understanding that everybody needs to be kind of immersed. ?

Keith Shaw: Carl, are you seeing that too? When, when you talk with CIOs, that they understand that they should be a part of of the training and the upskilling, or are they deferring to other, other business people? ?

Carl Friedmann: Oh, yeah, they're integral to the whole system, really. I mean, this might be a bit of a tangent, but, I mean, a lot of companies get kind of hoodwinked into taking on something they don't know how to use or what it's for.

So there needs to be those checks and balances. You know, robust training and development programs are needed, which is something that LinkedIn Chief Product Officer, his name is Tomer Cohen, says, but then we have Brett Barton.He's global AI Practice Leader at Unisys.

He says it's the non tech companies that have the hardest time, you know, finding talent with Gen AI skills.

I mean, their PaaS skills don't often afford top tech talent, and they don't often have technical leadership that can adequately vet the people they're interviewing so they can educate internally.

But the technology evolves so fast that by the time someone finishes a course or program, the tech is different. So, yeah, it's all hands on deck, really. ? Keith Shaw: Yeah.

And on a similar note, I think I want to ask you this too, on a similar note, where the IT leaders probably don't have as much knowledge as they should.

I mean, some of those stats were showing that a lot of IT leaders felt that they weren't properly trained themselves.

So does it become a case of where it's like the cobblers children, where, you know, you ask everybody who wants to be trained in AI, and the entire company raises their hand, and then you have to make the decision, Well, should we train the IT staff first and then, and then use that to train everybody else?

Or does that become seen as like, well, you're just being selfish. We should train the business first and then, and then you get and then whatever is left over you can you?

I'm sure that there's battles going on about who can get the training first and second and all that kind of stuff. ?

Matt Egan: Yeah, definitely. I think, I mean, there's a few things that I'd want to unpick there. Is interesting that Carl mentioned. You know, things failing after the purchase of a product or service, right?

And our own customer service data shows that customer engagement data story shows that the time when it is least involved is after implementation, and typically that's the time when things go go wrong. So causation isn't correlation, but like, you know, there is, there is definitely a piece.

There is a piece of something there. And I think I was speaking to an IDC analyst recently who talked about, you know, I said, if you could give one piece of advice on this subject, what would it be?

And she said, you know, don't, don't think of yourself as a buyer, as someone who's, you know, purchasing solutions. Think of yourself as a strategist.

And then like, like, think about the the buying piece, because I think as it relates to to this skills question, there's no doubt that, as a leader, I don't care whether you're in it or not, you should be spending time learning about the potential of this technology.

But if you are the IT leader, you probably want to make sure that you are the expert, or you certainly employ the expert within your organization so that you're able to make and lead those decisions. ?

Keith Shaw: Yeah, and Carl, what are you what are you hearing on that? Are you know? Are they are the IT leaders that you talk to understanding about who needs to be trained first, or does that not even come up? It's more about the budget and training priorities.

?

Carl Friedmann: There's there's some variation, but like I spoke with Brad Stone, he's SVP at Booz Allen Hamilton, and he was CIO, and he was CIO, yeah, up until about last year, he speaks about being something called Client zero, which helps the company, company inspire and kind of retain talent while continuously learning and embracing technology to to build, you Know, trusted relationships.

The company is also building its own Gen AI training model. And you know, they have 14,000 employees, you know, already starting to upskill. You know, through that, the goal is to have, you know, all 35,000 you know, the whole workforce be aI ready.

So it is a this collective effort, and they see re skilling existing employees as you know, the best way to attain ROI, yeah. ?

Keith Shaw: And so you know, the next question I wanted to ask was, how much time is needed by an IT leader to think about how the jobs are going to change within the organization with, you know, the rise of either generative AI or agentic AI, for example, we had Salesforce CEO Mark Benioff on our other show today in tech, and he discussed on our show and other podcasts about he's focusing less time on hiring customer service professionals because of their agent force, AI agents.

But then he also was saying that he wants to re skill a lot of those customer service people to become account managers, because he's recognized that he needs as Agent force grows, he's going to need more account managers and so, you know, is there a recognition among IT leaders?

?

Is that that a lot of the jobs and responsibilities within the organization are going to change and and how much of a role does, does the IT leader have in those job changes? ?

Carl Friedmann: Yeah, there's certainly a changing landscape of roles. AI, isn't just a separate thing anymore. It's, you know, limited to data scientists, like, if you're hiring a software engineer, that that person has to have some knowledge of AI.

And if you're hiring an AI engineer, that person you know needs to have knowledge of software development. So there is a lot of reciprocating.

Adobe, for instance, recently created a specialist group like a governance process called AI and Adobe to help shape its strategy that includes people from legal engineering and other business functions, and they set the direction for emerging tech.

So the key part is finding the right tool for the right individual and their CIO, Cindy Stoddard says, you know, they don't want to end up with Gen I, Gen AI sprawl, with a complex, like tangle of services. ?

So this AI at Adobe works, you know, with the IT team to control the organization's AI tools, and, you know, get the best value out of the technology. ? Matt Egan: Yeah.

So I think if we, I mean, you know, that's brilliant, because, again, Carl is, is speaking to practitioners who are, who are doing this work, right? And it's excellent sort of detail and knowledge.

I think if you take a step back, you know, we've talked often Keith about how, you know, like leading on strategy, leaning on it, strategy, which should be business strategy, is the sign of a successful organization.

And any successful leader has what I would call an organizational strategy, right? So you're not thinking necessarily about this individual's great. They're an A player, they're a B player, whatever you're saying, right? What does our organization needs to look like in future?

Like, what skills, what responsibilities, what processes need to be handled. You know, what at each kind of node of the business? Like, where do we need a human being to be like in in charge of making decisions?

And I think I'm seeing that happen a lot more and more, and it's kind of becoming more both kind of more anonymized and to a certain extent, outside of traditional job roles, because it has to be right, because we're going to change the business, there's going to be some level at which agenda agents are fitting in here alongside human beings, the drudge work, the toil we're hoping that's going to go away.

But that means we need decision makers, human strategists and decision makers and what? And the knock on effect to that is the individual whose job title is this or that may not be doing that work in future, right?

So, so a lot of what these leaders are having to do is identify smart folks, people who can learn, people who can be trained, people who are completed finishers, people who are creative, and then think, and then after you have your strategy in place, that's when you start to put people into those roles and figure out where you're lacking.

There are certain things where you need very specific technical skills today, right? And ?

you've got to go get them. There are other areas where it's like, you know what? Let's grow together and figure this out, kind of thing. I bet this person can learn to do that well. So I do think like that kind of the point Mark Benioff makes.

And, you know, here's a shock. He's a smart guy, right? But I feel like, you know, obviously he has his own organizational strategy in mind, and he's thinking about the future looks like, I think all organizations are going through some something similar.

And as employees, you know, flexibility and the ability to grow and learn is going to be a really important factor as businesses develop and transform and the years go by. ?

Keith Shaw: Yeah, so, yeah, there's a couple of other side issues that I want to talk about.

I found this really cool article on cio.com talking about the eight new rules of it, leadership and, you know, basically the new way of thinking, and one of them was related to training and skilling. It wasn't just about training on a specific technology or platform or an app.

For example, there was this great quote. It was like, for example, it's not just training someone how to use Insert tech here, like, you know, one app, but to get them to understand why it's important to the job and how it will help people become more efficient.

And it feels like that's what an IT leader needs to do. When it comes to training their people, is not just kind of going through, okay, first you do x, then you then you click this button, then you do this, and everything's great.

It's almost like there has to be a higher level. This is why we're doing this with the AI. This is, you know, we're not replacing your job, but your job is now going to be this, because this will make everybody more efficient.

And I'm not sure if we're going to see that initially, but that's what everyone should strive for. Correct? ? Carl Friedmann: Yeah.

I think, yeah. Stable IT infrastructure is more essential than ever, and yet, CIOs can't succeed. You know, by making a steady state, the end all be all.

So, you know, it must be change agents who are okay with constant change and advocates for it, while, you know, ensuring infrastructure can scale to support that change.

What makes Gen AI different from other major tech revolutions is that the AI itself can be used to help meet the challenges it creates. You can talk to it as if it were a person. So that accelerates adoption and faster training than any other technology.

So that's part of becoming technically fluent, but I don't think it. Leaders are willing to say that Gen AI will achieve emotional intelligence. Yet, even if AI has been discussed and pored over for decades, and we're still hearing a lot of you know, it's still early.

We're still in the early days of what AI means to the enterprise. So and cutting out humans, the loop is a pretty unpopular, you know, position to take still. I mean IT Leaders certainly want progress in this area, but not total relinquishment.

It's kind of like a dichotomy, paradox will get incrementally closer, but, you know, never all the way there. I mean, that's, that's kind of the sense I'm getting. ?

Keith Shaw: Yeah, I think a lot of the things I've seen out there have talked about they don't, you know, they're people that do not want to have an AI as a manager or as a supervisor, it just feels like, you know, and to bring it all the way to the top.

I don't think any CIOs want to, you know, report to either an AI 娇色导航or an AI CEO, but there are people that are out there that are trying that experiment.

We've seen that, you know, even even, you know, I saw an Instagram clip the other day where someone was doing an AI interview with an avatar, and they, you know, the first level of a job interview was now being asked by AI avatars.

And these things look horrible and that, you know, it's, it's like talking to a robot. And I just don't think that experiments like that, maybe the experiments are done so that we can see how bad it is and maybe try to improve it.

But I don't think anybody wants that, that emotional empathy that AI does not have, right? ?

Matt Egan: I think, yeah, I mean a lot to unpick here, and I really appreciate Carl talking about the infrastructure piece, right? Because, again, this comes back to this thing of you can't do any of this without having the base to build from.

And right now that requires, like, real kind of bricks and mortar, and that requires human management.

I think, like we were saying before, you know, I can see a world in which, if we think about human to human management, it's not so much this is how you do the thing.

But here's a problem to be solved, here's the potential capability of some technology that can help you solve it. Here's guardrails, here's a strategy, go figure it out, kind of thing.

And in that instance, that's the human managing AI to do what in the past would have been done by a more junior human right. I can see that happening a lot.

It's definitely the case that IT strategy, and business strategy and business strategy becoming more than the same thing. So again, to your point earlier. Keith, like it, leaders need to inform and inspire their teams to drive change, not just support like the business operation, right?

So it does have to be about contextualizing the work. Why are we doing this thing? Why are we, you know, regardless of human AI, whomever is making this thing happen, why are we doing it? Because it's got to support the overall business success.

Often actually orientates around customer success.

But I don't, I don't think, you know, maybe I'm horribly naive, and when one day I'm working for our robot masters, I obviously I welcome, but I think it's much more about humans being empowered, maybe a smaller number of humans, let's be clear, but humans being empowered to use agent AI tools to solve problems within guardrails and the strategy, than it is about humans being told what to do by an AI.

But again, like maybe, maybe I'm just going to be naive to. ?

Keith Shaw: Isn't that what makes generative AI and a lot of these technologies so interesting is not just because, to Carl's point, with the infrastructure, where you really need the AI and the agents itself to be highly accurate and specific and not hallucinate. So you've got that side.

It's almost like the left, left brain, right brain side of things, but generative AI can do the right brain stuff. At least some of it. It's getting it's getting better and better at the creative side of things.

So that's to me that that sounds that's what makes it so interesting, is because there's, there's so many different avenues where generative AI can help, and that's why it's going across the business.

But I think just to focus on one specific part of it might be dangerous to companies when they should really be exploring everything. ? well, ?

Matt Egan: Well, and also you don't know the nature of it is to your point, Keith, I mean, like, like, the terms like creativity are loaded, right? Is it creativity, or is it? Is it an infinite number of monkeys processing an infinitely fast rate? Right?

Sort of doesn't matter if the outcomes the same. But, and this is where this distinction between AI inside and AI outside is is super important, right?

Ai inside, we want to do something internally faster than we've done it before, like within an each each node of the process, we're able to kind of isolate the AI and get it to do it that will make things faster. You will be able to develop some ROI.

That's cool, right? That's an efficiency.

But the really exciting piece is the really scary bit, because it's like, if you allow an AI as an agent to have agency like to, in effect, make decisions like, in the solve a problem or the the passing of a process, then you don't know.

Carl said this brilliantly, right? Agentic AI is set up so that it can solve the problem it causes from an infrastructure perspective, but you are at that point, outsourcing some critical decision making to a machine, and you don't know what the incremental outcome of that is, right?

It becomes exponential. That's kind of challenging me, but that's also the bit where we have to manage humans. Or you speak to leaders, they'll say that they have to manage humans to be empowered, to manage the agents, right? That's that's the challenge here.

And you have to manage humans, lead humans to be comfortable with uncertainty. ?

Keith Shaw: All right. I want to ask Carl a question about when, when you talk to the CIOs out there, are they still generally optimistic about about generative AI technologies, or do they automatically start thinking about the obstacles and the hurdles and and that kind of thing?

And I guess it depends on who you talk to, so I'm going to give you that out if you want it. But in general, are they? Are they? Are they excited about it, or they, you know, like, oh God, now all this other work I've got to do?

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Carl Friedmann: Yeah, it's, I think you can't have one without the other.

Really, there's if, if you're, you know, if you're serious about it, you have to be, you know, cognizant of the pitfalls and the fact that, you know, if we're having this discussion six months a year from now, you know how different things are going to look, how antiquated.

You know, some things that we're talking about now are going to be, you know, then. So it's a constant, you know, you know, restless pursuit. You know, to be vigilant. I mean, from what I'm hearing, really, I mean, work is becoming increasingly organized around smaller collaborative networks.

So leaders must be able to, you know, be able to operate in in networked context, not just a hierarchical one.

So instead of silos there, there needs to be an increase in employee autonomy and development of dynamic networks of cooperation, and, you know, integrated into that is AI and all the tools and and facilities that are coming around.

So I don't know if that's, that's a, you know, a well rounded answer to the question, but yeah, it's, it's a constant work in progress. ?

Matt Egan: It's exactly that. It's uncertainty almost as a certainty, right? Like, like, the one thing we know is that, like, we don't know.

And I love what you just said there, Carl, about these collaborative groups, because I was speaking to an IT leader recently, was talking about pods. Describe pods so, like, within the business now, not just within it.

It's about pods of people solving problems using AI tools, exactly as you, as you just described Carl. I'm not sure I like that term of pod, right? ?

Keith Shaw: Well, it's like, I've never been, I've never been a fan of the word huddle room, either. But again, it's that's more about my wordsmithing than anything else. Just I wanted to talk about something fun that I did.

I took I went and said, I went on to chat GPT, and I said, Give me something. The prompt was something like, give me the top skills that an IT leader needs in 2025 and that's all I said.

And what was interesting is that, you know, the it gave me a list of 10 different skills, AI and digital fluency, was number one on the list. And I don't, I didn't ask it to rank it either.

Just get, you know, for some reason it was like AI and digital fluency. Second one was cross functional collaboration. I think we talked about that a little bit. Data driven. Decision making is out there.

Change Management and agility, strategic vision, cyber security, risk management, talent development and retention and innovation mindset, ethical and responsible, leadership and executive communication and influence.

So the reason I want to bring this up is it's not just AI skills that we're talking about for the for the IT Year in 2025 there's a lot of other things that they have to do.

And I think Matt You mentioned at the beginning of the show, you know from your state of the 娇色导航survey, security was still the top concern, and so that's probably top of mind.

So I'm just wondering where AI skills and fluency lands with most of the IT leaders that you talk about. Is it number one on their list now, or is it somewhere in the middle?

And that's kind of our end of show vote here, by the way, you know is a you know? Is AI at the top? Or is it somewhere in the middle? ?

Matt Egan: It depends how you pass it out, right? I think what's really interesting about that list is how many human skills are on there, like, how many human leadership skills, rather than technical it? And I think, like cars covered this throughout the show.

I've tried to sort of mention it as well. Like, what you hear all the time is that the problem to be solved now is, it's a problem in a world of uncertainty. It's about getting motivated, skilled people to follow a strategy and figure stuff out.

Like that's increasingly like a thing that's that's required of of leaders. What I will say is, as it relates to specifically technical things.

Like, I know myriad IT leaders who have time set aside for them and their reports like every week, maybe even every day, just to read up and Gen themselves up on the latest thing, because, and it's aI that's where that that thinking is right, the rest of the business can probably run itself.

But I need to know more than the other people. But Carl, I mean, you speak to these people all the time, like, what do you see? ?

Carl Friedmann: No, two days are the same, really. And I can talk to one, it leader about one thing, and then I can talk to another one, and it'll be vastly different, or totally different approach.

But the commonalities is that it's here, and it's going to affect how the enterprise is structured, and there is a wait and see element to it, but we're definitely seeing benefits some of the you know, the worst at all, are being exposed in a lot of ways.

Just like Keith, what you said about, you know, having an avatar doing your first round of interviews. I mean, I can hardly see that being something that's going to catch on.

You know, especially when you speak to, you know, this generation who want a little more, you know, human contacts, more empathy, you know, more direct human interaction. You know that that's kind of flies in the face of that, of that mindset.

So it's incredibly exciting period right now, and it's great to speak with people and and hear how things are developing and evolving. ?

Keith Shaw: All right, so would you say that that that AI and digital fluency is at the top of the list, or is it? Is it still security and and some of the other the other skills is, what? What skills they need to have?

Well, it's hard to really separate the two entirely, like security. I mean being part of being digitally fluid is, is understanding security and understanding who within your team, you know, might be more, you know, acutely attuned to to that aspect of it.

But, you know, have it having having a network established to know who to speak to and who the expert is going to be, so that it leader, the onus is on, is on him or her, to to really see how the all the all those integrate together. ?

Right, And one could argue that all of these skills that we're talking about, all of these different technical areas, plus all of the human areas of leadership and management, those will be affected by AI technologies. I think you'll see tools across all of those different brands.

So again, not knowing about what tools you can use and how it could benefit the company would, would probably be the best way to go, right? ?

Matt Egan: Yeah, definitely. And it's like, that question on, like, what do we have to what do we have to worry about today? Like, from an operational perspective, that is definitely, like, security and it's infrastructure, but it's like, how are we going to still be relevant tomorrow?

And like, the solution that Carl said it right, security and AI are not separate things, right? Like, the solution will definitely involve some level of AI.

So to your point, Keith, like, if I'm an IT leader, I need to be, if I'm not the most smart person around this technology, I need to be very close to that person. ?

Keith Shaw: There you go. All right, Matt and Carl, again, thanks again for joining us this month on the show. Some great stuff. And again, keep keep talking to those CIOs and get more stories for the next time we're having on the show. All right.

Thanks a lot, Keith, thanks everybody for participating. We're going to be back next month with more global editors to talk about the latest challenges in cloud computing. It's all the time we have on the show today. Feel free to add any comments you have below. ?

And be sure to check out our other Tech Talk shows. We have a lot of great shows called Today in Tech, 娇色导航Leadership Live and DEMO. If you're interested in seeing the latest B to B product demonstrations. I'm Keith Shaw, thanks for watching. ? ?