娇色导航

Lee, welcome to 娇色导航leadership, live UK, women in technology. I'm Lee Renick, Executive Director of 娇色导航communities for cio.com and I'm really honored to welcome Sue Griffin OBE, head of user support services and head of service management practice, DWP digital.

Welcome, Sue, thanks so much for joining us today.

Oh, thank you so much. Lee, me, they're looking forward to it.

Well, I really, really do appreciate you joining us here today. Sue, you know we are create. We've created this series to really support women in their leadership and business journey.

And so the first question I ask everybody this question, could you tell us a little bit your own about your own career path, and maybe you provide some insights or tips on that road path?

You know, are there any lessons learned that you could share, especially as a woman? So yes, well,

I'll tell you a little bit about my current role. So I head up and user support services within DWP Department for Work and Pensions digital group. And so in simple terms, if your it isn't working, it's my team who are your first protocol to fix it.

So I have about 450 staff, and we support over 90,000 colleagues. I'm also head of our IT service management profession. We have about 1200 professionals within digital group who have service management their profession.

So I'm responsible for helping build their capability, recruiting the right people, so we get better outcomes from those services. And I'm also a keen and very passionate sponsor of our women in digital group. So sort of three aspects to my role, really, I've always been a civil servant.

I started work at the Department for Work and Pensions when I was 18, which is a very long time ago, with the intention of just staying a year and then going to university. And 37 almost years later, I'm still here.

So I started work in a local, what you might call a benefit center, so paying benefits out as a, really one of our most junior grades.

So I was doing lots of things clerically, paying benefits to people and and, gosh, over the years, I've moved around quite a lot.

I mean, the joy of working for a very large government department and the civil service actually is it gives you a lot of flexibility to do different things and different roles.

So I moved from doing an operational role, I then moved into what is project delivery, and changed delivery, I then worked in procurement, procurement and commercial for quite a few years, and then worked in, moved into sort of it proper, as it was, in around 2010 so from 1987 up till about 2010 digital an it wasn't something, you know, in my sort of career path or or my career, really.

So from 2010 onwards, that's been my primary focus, is in it and digital. Most of my roles have been around the north of the UK, or the north of England, actually, to be, to be specific.

So I've moved around quite a bit in the north of England, across across all those roads, and I got promoted to a senior civil service role in 2012 so, so a sort of whistle stop tour through a really long career doing lots and lots of different roles.

And I think back to the sort of the sort of second part of what you ask was really Lee, which was around some sort of lessons learned or top tips through that, you know, through through that career.

I think for me, I've always tried to be the expert in whatever it is I'm doing, so I've invested quite a lot of time as I went through the different roles and work my way up the career ladder was, how can I get more qualified in this role that I'm doing?

What are the people that I looked up to are doing that role? What are they doing? What are they learning? What are the other things I need to do to help me along that journey?

I think I applied sometimes for roles, and I always advise people to sort of, didn't know if I could really do but, but I thought they looked really interesting. You know, I thought it looked really interesting. I thought it looked challenging.

So I thought I'll have a go and see if I get it. And, you know, lucky enough, not all the time, but luckily enough sometimes, to get that opportunity. And I've always really focused for myself on only applying for things that I really care about.

So not applying for something because I think I'm going to get paid more or I'm going to get a promotion, it's actually do, I think.

This is a role that I care about, and I'm going to be passionate about, and therefore I can make a difference in, I guess, you know, is some of the things that I've really focused on.

And the other thing, I guess I would say, to sort of lessons learned through all of that, is like, say, a, have a go at things, and be if you can get a mentor or a coach, you know, somebody you sort of think, Oh, that looks like someone who's interesting or can help me sometimes outside of your own profession, just to give you a bit of that leg up and a bit of challenge, actually, as well about some of the things that you're you're doing.

So yes, that's a, that's a whistle stop tour of 37 years this June, I'll have done in the department.

Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that.

I love this idea, and you know, of continuous learning, like you really have taken this journey of learning through different areas of the business of the organization, you know, taking that, you know, I think you talk pretty much about that, maybe potential imposter syndrome saying, I don't know if I could do this, but I'm gonna take the test on this and defeating what your brain is saying.

And I know a lot of women go through that. You know, obviously your work was such a large remit right now, and how you've built your career towards that is incredible. I'm totally inspired by it.

So thank you so much for sharing that and sharing those lessons learned on the road path. I think being passionate about what you do and loving what you do and caring about it is so important.

You know, that's really reflected now, especially with a lot of the tech leaders I speak with around some of the new innovations, and we'll talk about it later.

But you know, Jenner General van things like that, it's like, how are you making sure we still humanize all the things that we're doing, and we have passion around what we're doing, so I really appreciate it.

So we are recording this during international women's month 2024 and the theme this year is, imagine a gender equal world, a world that's free of bias, stereotypes and discrimination, and a world that's diverse, equitable and inclusive, and a world where difference is valued and celebrated.

So you mentioned you're a big advocate for women building their careers in technology. You support the women's group at DWP, you know, thank you for doing that. First of all, it's so important. I would really love to hear from you.

And I ask a lot of women in your role, where you are internally supporting these great initiatives. You know, what do you believe employers and organizations should be doing to help build skills and places for women in technology? Yeah,

that's a really great question. Lee, I mean, for me, I think you have to have a pretty relentless focus on it. These things do not happen by accident.

So if it's something, again, that's that point of if you care about it, and if you genuinely care about it, you have to put in policies and practices in place to show that you do actively care about it, you know, and keep that in other words, don't pay lip service to, oh, well, we need gender equality, but not doing anything about it.

So we've done quite a lot of work. I mean, DWP is a big government department. Obviously we have pretty, I would say pretty good policies around, you know, equality. I think we have really good rules around, you know, flexible working. Recently, it might be 18 months ago.

Now we've even got things like the menopause network, helping women deal with menopause in the workplace and making it Okay, actually, to talk about, you know, the challenges that women face and men, not so just about women, but the challenges that we all face in the workplace, supporting people with flexible policies.

We did quite a bit of work to do around returners, so people turning to the work place and then how we can support them, particularly women who may have had a few years out with the childcare responsibilities. So I think there's lots around that.

And also, we've put in place certain leadership programs that support women. So we have things like what we call the crossing threshold program, the future leaders schemes, so you can actually put things in place specifically to support women.

And I admit Lee, and I've said this, by the way, on the in DWP forums in the past. In the past, I would I used to go, I'm not going on a course that's just for women, or I'm not going on a thing that's just for women.

I'm perfectly capable myself. As I've matured and got older, I've realized those things are absolutely necessary, you know.

So I wasn't mature enough to recognize that's what we needed, but I strongly believe you need to put in place support mechanisms or development programs and create some safe spaces where women can talk develop and perhaps in a different, different environment than a than a mixed environment.

Really, it's. I think there's quite a lot of things that you can put in place. I think it's important our employee value proposition, we very actively make sure that we have a diverse representation on our outward facing media. We make sure when we're recruiting people.

We have diverse panels. So actually, you know, you can't just have a group of men doing all the recruitment, or the other way around, just a group of women doing your recruitment. You know, you need to have diverse panels. And actually, we probably on a slight tangent.

What relevant to this is, you know, we we've actually just recently won. They did, I cannot get this wrong with the diversity of thought in Leadership Award at the digital leaders impact awards.

And that was really about they were really impressed by how the strong commitment that we have to grow diversity through the organization, and that's right from rich Corbridge, who's our CDIO, because he's the DP gender champion, and that we have objectives through our organization to create that equal space.

So again, I think it's that, it's the flow right through from the top of the organization, throughout the organization, displaying that something matters, and more importantly, doing something about it, not just do it as a token thing.

The thread that you're talking about here is really organizations need to be intentional, right? They need to. They are sort of talking about, you know, we should do this or that, or we have enough women in this place. It's like be intentional.

Well, you know, what is your role in ensuring that those women feel supported? You know, how are you looking to recruit to bring more diversity into your teams?

I mean, there's, I always talk to so many, you know, individuals in your role, saying there's so many, there's so much research out there showing that diverse workforces create more shareholder and stakeholder value.

So why wouldn't, yeah, the research is there to, you know, there's, there's no doubt here, right? So, but I think your point, everything you're talking about, is, please, you know, be intentional, and then also that idea of, you know, from the leadership all the way through the organization.

Those intentions are there too. I was interviewing Charlene Hunter, who's the founder of coding black females. And you know, we were talking about, I'd entered, interviewed someone else here in Canada who said, you know, you know the glass ceiling. And I said, Yeah.

She said, Well, for a black woman, it's made of concrete. And I was totally shocked when I heard that. And Charlene said, Well, yeah, because it's about representation, right?

You if you don't see black women in leadership roles, then it is like it's made of concrete, because you don't, you can't see through concrete, right? So, yes, very interesting conversation. So I'd like to talk a little bit about some of the initiatives you you're involved with.

And you mentioned that you are, you know, supporting the women's group at DWP digital. So maybe could you tell me a little bit about that, just the types of things you're doing? Yeah, absolutely.

And so we have a number of different initiatives within digital group. We have a program that we call digital voices, that women in the organization can apply to be part of every year, and that's really helping them. It almost literally is what it says on the tin.

How do they find their voice? So actually, we help them with coaching, mentoring, we get speakers in, we give them opportunities to present at events that they may not have presented at, and we find that that does really well.

It really but a lot of it's about building confidence, actually, confidence in their ability. So do a lot of work around that. We have monthly chat a bit like this. Actually.

We've got monthly sort of fireside chats with them, sometimes with people within DWP, sometimes externals, just again, about people's what's people's career journey, what might some of the barriers they faced? How have they tackled them?

We do a lot of, I would say, applying for industry awards, but we do that on the basis that we have actually achieved things, and we actually get women in digital to apply for those things. So one of my colleagues were shortlisted in the digital 100 leaders.

Some of our colleagues, we do a lot of work, talking at industry events. We're also very keen that, and I do this quite actively. If I'm asked to join a panel, I will say no if that panel isn't diverse at an industry event.

So no, I'm not you need to try harder. Yeah, we do a lot of sessions in helping coach people and mentor people. So when they're applying for jobs, they're applying for promotions, can we help them? You know, articulate.

They the way they the way they should articulate themselves, and we also focus on how women can engage with their professional networks. So again, I'm head of profession for service management.

So what can I do if people are in my profession to help them develop but you need to go on this call. Back to my point about you need to be professional, and we need to deliver stuff, right?

We're a big government department for paying benefits to 20 million citizens. So what could you do in your career to build your own capability?

So we do quite a bit about, go on this course, go on that course, all sorts of things really, to try and really help, you know, build the professionalism and we are getting when I say, getting there. How do you know you're ever done?

Hey, but you know the difference now is our senior leadership team of women at the senior civil servant level is about 40% now on our executive team is 50% congratulations.

It is phenomenal.

Less than 10 years, I would say seven or eight years ago, it was significantly less, yeah, than that, you know. So it's really important as well, for me, that you actually measure whether you're making a difference, you know.

So actually, we can do all this great stuff, and we can help people and support people, but actually, if you're not shifting the dial, yeah, within the organization, yeah. And that can be very frustrating.

So we are shifting the dial, but as I say, for me, that takes quite a relentless focus through the organization, you know. And of course, women is one aspect. What about people who are disabled? What about people who are black and minority ethnic?

You know, there's a whole I apologize if you can hear that my doorbell is just going but, but it is for me, just so important to get involved in things, to be up to something, and actually really look at our all the things that you do in making a difference, you know, as well.

And

that's, you know, so many women are doing this, and, you know, we, we are leaning in in such a significant way to really ensure that these, these initiatives, all the things we're trying to do our our, like you said, we keep growing.

We keep having more than 50% we, you know, all of those things, but it is very heavy lift. So I appreciate all the work that you're doing. So I wanted to ask you about your teams, because you run, you lead a very large team.

So was wondering if you could provide some leadership tips for those watching and like, what are some of the actions you take to support your own leadership growth?

And you've talked about some of those, but yeah, any tips around leadership for really large teams, and how do you manage that?

Our team's quite big. It's not that big as go to some of the other organizations that people lead.

But I think for me, leading an organization a little bit back to what I said before, is I think you have to love what you do, because that really comes through the author you have. I'm quite passionate about you have to be authentic, right?

If you're leading a very big organization. My organization is very dispersed as well, you know. So I've got 450 people in about 100 locations all over the country. So you're not sat with them. You can't go around and have a cup of tea.

So actually, it's about being very passionate about what you do. It's for me, about setting a really, really clear mission, about why we're here, and that's really important to me. As I say, I've stayed a civil servant all of my career, because I'm passionate about it.

I'm passionate about what DWP does, we make a difference to some of the most vulnerable people in society.

So, so getting my team behind the mission of you know what we do matters the support we give to 100,000 colleagues across this country so that they can do their job to help citizens. That's what matters, you know.

So we so there's a real thing about a, showing passionate B, being authentic C, getting that really clear. This is our mission. This is what we're here to do.

And and ultimately, and I was saying in the nicest possible way to people, if that's not your mission and that doesn't switch you on, that's okay. Go and do something else. That's absolutely fine.

You know, that's the mission that we have, and, and, and really, I think again, we've got big, dispersed teams. It's really celebrating getting stuff done and sharing what people are up to across your community. So XT, they did this brilliantly. Let's lean in and do that. This team.

They did that brilliant. Let's do that. So a lot of them, strong communications, different communicate. Ways of communicating as well. Because people have lots of different preferences. I get out and about. I have what I call my leadership team meetings on the road. So we.

We have our meetings around the country in different places. We invite the local teams in to sort of sit down and ask us anything they might want to ask us, you know.

So I think it's and one of the other things I've really focused on is you have to have leadership at all levels of the organization if it's relying on me to try and you know, lead 450 people on a daily basis, that is just not going to work.

So it really is that grow leadership at all levels. Make sure that your teams are empowered to do the right thing at the same time feeling safe that if you do something wrong, I've got their back. Do you know what I mean? You know?

Because actually, this is an audition I trust you to get on with that mission. Yeah, sometimes things go awry, because they always do, but don't worry about that. I have your back if things go wrong.

Yeah, I think they're some of the things for me as a as a leader of a dispersed and quite a big team, really, is that sort of enthusiasm, passion, authenticity, you know, and leadership at all levels, and just having that really clear mission, you know, that says, Look, if you're doing things in a in this direction, it's okay if things go a bit a bit awry sometimes, as long as We're staying focused on where we're trying to get to.

I love that.

And you know, so many individuals I speak to talk about that painting the vision of the sky and the North Star of the sky, and following that vision what you're talking about and being inspired for Okay, I have one other thing that was not in this question, but I do have to acknowledge, and I'm very honored to speak to you because you've been appointed an Officer of the Order of the British Empire.

So congratulations. I have that. Congratulations. I'm sure it's for much of the work that you're doing here, but tell me about that. What does that feel like? I just you know it must be amazing to be acknowledged for your work in this way. Wow.

Honestly, Lee, I could not believe it. I was absolutely stunned when I found out last last summer, even now it's really hard to explain, it was just absolutely amazing.

You get the letter that says you've been recommended to His Majesty for an order, you know, for public service and and that's phenomenal.

And it feels quite humbling, really, that you think, Gosh, and all the effort that I've put in over the years, the things that I've done in DWP, the things that I've I've led, that have really made a difference.

You know, being recognized at that sort of national level is, is phenomenal, really. You know, I'm so it will always be my proudest achievement. Voter, it is my absolutely proudest achievement, and it's, yeah, very, very humbled to receive it. Well, congratulations.

It is an honor to speak with you today, and thank you for everything you are doing to ensure that you're using your voice and you're helping organizations understand the benefits of you know, supporting women in the workforce and in leadership roles. So I appreciate it so much.

And thank you so much for joining us here today. Sue,

oh, and thank you so much for your time, Lee. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

And if you're interested in listening to this video or others, please head on over to cio.com front slash, UK. Thanks again. You.